Gabriel and Nick discuss a little more about the Depp and Heard trial, and then move on to talk about the recent by-elections and how they suggest the age of the ANC is drawing to an end. They also discuss the criminal accusations made about President Cyril Ramaphosa and what these might mean for the country. Recommendations: Nick: Pirates of the Caribbean curse of the Black PearlGabriel: Johannesburg Philharmonic Orchestra